Robots are the strangest people. No, people are the strangest people. (btvs 5:15)

[cordelianne]

I’m in complete agreement with my Buffy quote today, people are the strangest people.

In the past few weeks, I’ve had the misfortune to read a lot of arguments between fans, who are in the same fandom, which are basically people disagreeing about what qualities one must have to call themselves a true fan of a show. To this I say WTF?!!! Since when should other people decide/proclaim for someone else how or why she/he can enjoy a show?! In particular, I’m responding to this discussion on whedonesque about slash fanfiction:

Here's the link. The always fabulous wikipedia has definitions for fanfiction and slash.

I enjoy a good debate about my favourite tv shows (and, trust me, I can have endless lengthy discussions about my fandoms) but this doesn’t seem to be a stimulating debate; rather, people are freaking out because some fans enjoy a show in different ways than they do. This whole situation baffles me because some people are implying that there’s an objective response people should be having to art. This confuses me because I always thought that one’s reaction and relationship to art was subjective and personal (although I’ve always had wacky ideas like that!).

The interesting aspect of the debate on whedonesque is that some of the posters are clearly upset by the suggestion of male heroes having sex with each other. For example, here’s one of the comments:

I see the fascination with slash, but I don't really get it. To me, these guys are, ultimately, heroes. The heroes don't bugger each other in my world. Funny too, that I have absolutely zero trouble with Willow and Tara's relationship. I adore them.

Actually, I’d say the issue isn’t even sex – despite what’s being said – it’s GAY sex (ie. man/man sex). The implied statement is that big heroic men would never have sex with each other. Of course Willow/Tara is okay, it’s all sweet and romantic, and they’re not the male heroes of the shows. Also lesbian sexuality is generally considered less threatening than gay sexuality. The person who made the above comment later clarified that she/he’s hetero and that’s what she/he wants to see in fiction. Lucky for the commenter, that is what predominates in mainstream culture and is why people write slash fanfiction, so they can read and experience queer characters for sexy, hot, angsty, romantic and/or fun entertainment.

Joss Whedon has a very fun response to the above comment:

In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless. Not all of them, but more than you'd think, and probably not who you're thinking.

This comment makes me love Joss Whedon even more than I already do because he’s very open to fan interpretation of his work (as well as directly countering his fans’ homophobic freak-outs). One of my favourite moments – and also much discussed on whedonesque – is in Angel season 5 “Power Play” (5:21) when Spike says: Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

Although Spike/Xander is my favourite fanfic pairing to read (yes I do read fanfiction), I love the dynamic between Spike and Angel particularly in AtS season 5. To me there’s a homoerotic subtext between Angel and Spike, so when Spike says that he and Angel were intimate I was delighted that the show was acknowledging the vibe between them. I’ve always assumed that this comment was a confirmation that as some point Angel and Spike had sex.

Anyway, I discovered that not everyone had the same reaction as I did when I read some comments on whedonesque:

1. And I think they've read a little too much into the 'Well there was that one time...' comment.

2. Umm yeah, I don't think "Well there was that one time..." necessarily translates into "they had intercourse". Assume much?

Ignoring for a moment, the anti-slash bias of the commenters, there’s definitely a valid point about reading too much into Spike’s statement. It is possible Spike just meant that he and Angel had an intimate friendship moment; it doesn’t have to be about sex. However, because it’s never explicitly stated exactly what Spike means by intimate, it’s also assuming much to decide that Spike and Angel haven’t had sex. It’s interesting that the second commenter is particularly upset by the implication of male/male sex (ie. the mention of intercourse). To that I say, homophobic much?

In fact, there’s strong evidence to support the “Spike and Angel have had sex” argument if you take into account Joss’ statement on a commentary track:

I just want to say Angel and Spike, they were hanging out, uh, for years and years and years, they were in, you know, all kinds of deviant, they were vampires... Are we thinking they never...? Come on, people. I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin'. You know, they're open-minded guys. They may be evil but, you know, they're not bigoted or closed-minded.

I firmly believe Spike and Angel have a complex, difficult and meaningful relationship that has definitely included – hopefully still includes - sex; however most of this belief is based in my own postulating from canonical events and statements. This doesn’t mean that what I believe is the truth, but it’s not false either. It also doesn’t mean that other people can’t have differing ideas from mine. That’s why it’s called fiction.

What concerns me is the frequent homophobia that underlies a lot of negative reaction to slash fanfic or homoerotic subtext readings. I have a lot of friends who share fandoms with me and who don’t read slash fanfiction or see/look for the homoerotic subtexts like I do, and they’ve never been upset about the existence of slash pairings. I suspect this is because they’re all queer or queer-positive so their reactions aren’t being informed by a homophobic reaction. It’s possible to disagree with someone without being horrified about how they enjoy a show.

Here’s the thing, I think it is alright if people watch a tv show:

- only for the homoerotic subtext (ie. I mostly like Smallville for Clark/Lex)
- watch a show only because of a hot actor/actress
- because of a favourite canonical romantic pairing (eg. Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike, Veronica/Logan, Kara/Lee)
- because they love every aspect of it
- because of the kick ass feminist heroine
- because it’s such a smart show and they love to analyze every aspect of it (something I never do!!)
- for any other multitude of reasons that I can’t think of right now

The other thing to consider is that show producers and networks are also happy if people watch their tv show for any of the above reasons. Why? Because as long as enough people watch a show – for whatever reason - it’ll stay on the air and avoid cancellation. In fact, much of marketing for tv uses the sex appeal of the stars to sell the show. It only logically follows that people will imagine/fantasize about the characters and their sexiness.

I don’t understand why some people think they should regulate how other people should watch a show. As long as my favourite shows continue to be on the air I don’t care why other people are watching them. In fact, I think it’s awesome that there’s so many ways to derive enjoyment from tv, and it makes me happy that there are a multiplicity of ways to be a fan.

I think I’m upset by the homophobic reactions and attempts to regulate fandom because it reminds me of the likelihood of a right-wing, anti-gay Conservative government being elected in Canada later today (ie. Monday evening). I’m not looking forward to a government that has the potential to be repressive, so I’m hoping that my fandoms will not continue to emulate the world of politics.

All I really want to do is twirl my favourite tv shows and their fandoms. Pop culture should be about fun, fun, fun, and not uptight crankiness!!!

Comments

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

I pretty much reacted to the thread on Whedonesque in the same way you did - except that I noticed the thread became generally pleasant for most of its length, probably after Joss' brilliant post about heroes buggering each other. Even the slash dissenters had reasonable view-points, except for that one who said heroes didn't bugger in her world (because, she says later, she's straight and she wants to see the hero get the girl... ugh!) - but she got put in her place by The Joss.

I'm not sure a dislike of slash is necessarily homophobic. I am definitely-not-a-0-on-the-Kinsey-Scale and my dislike of slash (and fic in general) is my sometimes irrational love of canon. Even slash pairings that I understand (Spike/Angel I get), I don't necessarily get off on reading; and a good argument can be made for that relationship being canon - or fanon.

I certainly understand why some folks don't see the gay subtext, though. They aren't necessarily "trained" to look for it. If you are straight and have little exposure to queer folk (or, even, Queer as Folk ;-), there's no strong reason to look for it. Of course for people to dismiss sly allusions to it out-of-hand is troubling, but not unexpected.

Some are just so used to straight being the norm and gay being only select characters on network TV and on "Queer as Folk" and "The L Word" - and I don't necessarily think people's reaction to slash because of that is a bad thing. The over-riding problem is the fact that queer men and women are under-represented on television as it is - that's what really needs to be addressed.

A friend of mine said once that slash is a type of grass roots movement that makes gay pairing more acceptable in a wider section of fandom. If more and more people are being attuned to looking for or finding gay subtext, which leads to more gay characters in stories, books, plays, movies, etc - then it's all worth it.

But repurposing straight characters for fanfic man/man action just doesn't do anything for me. If I want man/man, I'll watch "Queer as Folk" or "Brokeback Mountain" or "Happy Together" - and lament that I can't get legit canon man/man action any other way. (Tthe slash Batman/Nightwing comic script I wrote for fun, notwithstanding...)

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts!!

I'm not sure a dislike of slash is necessarily homophobic. I agree with you about this. There's LOTS of slash and het fanfic that I don't like, and I understand slash not being everyone's cup of tea (heck, lots of people don't even like tea!). I was just really struck by the negativity towards slash - and more specifically gay sex - by some of the commenters which seemed really homophobic. It was the horror at slash that seemed homophobic.

my dislike of slash (and fic in general) is my sometimes irrational love of canon. I can totally understand this. The Buffyverse, in particular, is such a well-developed and layered universe that it's hard to imagine/desire anyone else stepping in and altering it. I have this weird personal dichotomy wherein I love the show's canon but also love reading good fanfiction.

I discovered fanfiction when I was bored at work one day (imagine that!), and was initially upset - not because of the slash - but because some of the characterizations of my beloved characters were inaccurate. However, over the years I've read some really amazing stories that are written by awesome writers who love the show and the characters. I've also come across some truely hideous stories, that I've stopped reading in boredom or unhappiness with the bad quality of writing.

What I find fascinating about fanfiction is that it questions the notion that there can one canon for a text. Sure there's the truth of the show's canon, but as stories are written by fans multiple versions of the truth emerge all co-existing at the same time. I love the concept that in the show Buffy came back from the dead at the beginning of Season 6 but in a variety of fanfiction stories she remains dead and the Scoobies struggle to move on without her. I love the episodes "The Wish" and "Birthday" which both show us alternate universes for BtVS and AtS, so - for me - good fanfiction it like getting lots of episodes like that.

Despite my whole "why I like fanfiction" rant, I embrace your dislike of fanfiction and your love of canon. I just think it's so cool that there are so many ways to enjoy the same show. Interestingly, I haven't been inclined to read any Battlestar Galactica fanfiction, even though I know there's lots of it out there and some of it is probably good.

I certainly understand why some folks don't see the gay subtext, though. They aren't necessarily "trained" to look for it. sigh. That is true, it's just not something that makes me very happy. My friend pointed out to me that a discussion like the one on Whedonesque is good because it gets people who may not look for gay subtext thinking about the topic - and that's a good thing.

The over-riding problem is the fact that queer men and women are under-represented on television as it is - that's what really needs to be addressed. Oh definitely!!! I was so sad the year that both Buffy and Dawson's Creek ended (besides my sadness at Buffy being over) because it meant that 2 shows that had queer characters in major roles were ending. With Will & Grace ending this year, that only leaves a few shows with major characters who are queer. For some reason - I don't have any stats on hand - it feels like there's less queer characters on tv instead of more in the last couple of years.

If I want man/man, I'll watch "Queer as Folk" or "Brokeback Mountain" or "Happy Together" - and lament that I can't get legit canon man/man action any other way.
I love "Brokeback Mountain" (Ang Lee!!!) and "Happy Together" (Wong Kar-Wei!!!). I think I've just realized that it's taking a while for there to be more queer characters in mainstream media (yay indie films!), so in the meantime I've been enjoying queer content where I can find it (eg. my love of the subtext on Smallville and Reba).

A friend of mine said once that slash is a type of grass roots movement that makes gay pairing more acceptable in a wider section of fandom. If more and more people are being attuned to looking for or finding gay subtext, which leads to more gay characters in stories, books, plays, movies, etc - then it's all worth it. I love that statement!! It makes me very happy.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

It was the horror at slash that seemed homophobic.

Yeah, it's like that old standard "They can do whatever they want in the bedroom, just don't tell me about it!" Well, you know what, being gay isn't just what happens in the bedroom. Slash isn't just about the sex. (Although it can be.)

However, over the years I've read some really amazing stories that are written by awesome writers who love the show and the characters. I've also come across some truely hideous stories, that I've stopped reading in boredom or unhappiness with the bad quality of writing.

And this is true of most writing - most of TV is hideous, most films aren't great. You have to sort through. I just expect a higher quality of writing from Buffy the TV show and lots of fanfic is atypical of characters, etc, etc. But, as you say, there's brilliant stuff out there too.

I love the episodes "The Wish" and "Birthday" which both show us alternate universes for BtVS and AtS, so - for me - good fanfiction it like getting lots of episodes like that.

I stupidly wrote off AU fic in another slash discussion recently only to have "The Wish" thrown back in my face. It's a good point.

My friend pointed out to me that a discussion like the one on Whedonesque is good because it gets people who may not look for gay subtext thinking about the topic - and that's a good thing.

Given how many posts eventually ended up in that thread, I was happy to see it didn't degenerate into a homophobic slanging match - even though there was still a lot of anti-slash feeling, it just felt like people disliked that on the same level some people don't get fic at all or don't see the point of grafting these new angles onto characters. As you say, these characters are very well layered to begin with.

I was so sad the year that both Buffy and Dawson's Creek ended (besides my sadness at Buffy being over) because it meant that 2 shows that had queer characters in major roles were ending. With Will & Grace ending this year, that only leaves a few shows with major characters who are queer.

I'm having trouble thinking of one! Well, apart from "The L Word".

I think I've just realized that it's taking a while for there to be more queer characters in mainstream media (yay indie films!), so in the meantime I've been enjoying queer content where I can find it (eg. my love of the subtext on Smallville and Reba).

I love the fact that "Brokeback" has garnered such a high profile and is even playing in the U.S. red states. It's mainstream now and apparently has spurred Hollywood on to re-evaluate queer scripts that have been sitting in their vaults for a while marked "Won't Play in the Mid-West".

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

being gay isn't just what happens in the bedroom. Slash isn't just about the sex. (Although it can be.) Very well said! My favourite parts of slash tend to be humourous, romantic and/or angsty.

I stupidly wrote off AU fic in another slash discussion recently only to have "The Wish" thrown back in my face. It's a good point. hee. Thanks!

Given how many posts eventually ended up in that thread, I was happy to see it didn't degenerate into a homophobic slanging match Yeah, since the Whedonesque post I've read about much nastier and less productive discussions in other fandoms about slash. I think I've always expected more of Buffyverse fans, so it's nice that - for the most part - people were reasonable.

I'm having trouble thinking of one! Well, apart from "The L Word". With "Queer as Folk" and "Six Feet Under" finished, there's:
- "Out of Practice"
- Crumbs" (but that's only aired for 3 episodes)
- "The Book of Daniel" (which was just cancelled so no longer counts)
"My Name is Earl" and "The Office" both have recurring gay characters (but they're not "starring" cast members).
Now that's just depressing.

On the bright side, there is "Brokeback Mountain" (and "Capote" and "Transamerica"):

It's mainstream now and apparently has spurred Hollywood on to re-evaluate queer scripts that have been sitting in their vaults for a while marked "Won't Play in the Mid-West".

I would LOVE to see what's in the "Won't Play in the Mid-West" file. (I don't doubt that Hollywood has files like that!!) There's got to be some awesome stuff in there!

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

Now that's just depressing.

Well, living in Australia, I haven't seen any of those shows. Okay, now you've counted them up, which are actually positive queer characters - it worries me that The Office and maybe My Name is Earl are just using gay characters for a laugh.

On the bright side, there is "Brokeback Mountain" (and "Capote" and "Transamerica")

Very true! Bring on the gay Oscars! (As if awards shows aren't already gay enough :)

(I don't doubt that Hollywood has files like that!!) There's got to be some awesome stuff in there!

Just like slash, I'm sure there's good and bad. ;)

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

Well, living in Australia, I haven't seen any of those shows. You totally trump my crankiness about not having the most recent "Battlestar Galactica" episodes airing on my cable because I live in Canada. (I haven't seen episode 2.14 yet because it's not finished downloading.)

"Out of Practice" is a okay sitcom about a family of doctors. The daughter who's an ER doctor, played by Paula Marshall (Rebecca James on "Veronica Mars"), is a lesbian. She's a very believable lesbian (especially since it's a sitcom).

"Crumbs" is a new sitcom that stars Fred Savage as a Hollywood screenwriter who returns home to help his family after his mother (Jane Curtin) has a mental breakdown when her husband leaves her. Fred Savage's character is gay, but he's not out to his family. It's an okay show, and his character is portrayed alright (he's supposed to be the sanest one in the family, I believe).

it worries me that The Office and maybe My Name is Earl are just using gay characters for a laugh. Good news - there's good portrayals on both shows! In the pilot for "My Name is Earl", Earl overcomes his small-town America homophobia and ends up becoming friends with Kenny (who's adorable and appears in multiple episodes - he even gets a boyfriend in an episode!!).

On "the Office" (the American version), we discover that one of the staff in the office (Oscar) is gay and has a partner he lives with, but that revelation isn't played for laughs. The humour is actually that Dwight (who's really dorky and kind of a loser) meets Oscar and his partner but doesn't notice that they're gay (so we actually laugh at his obliviousness).

Bring on the gay Oscars! (As if awards shows aren't already gay enough :) Oh yeah!! I love the Oscars for it's over-the-topness!! I've VERY excited that Jon Stewart is hosting!

Just like slash, I'm sure there's good and bad. ;)
But it would still be awesome to see what's in that file! I heard about this sitcom script that floated around Hollywood about a terrorist cell!! Apparently the premise was that the guys start to realize that they love America, but still ... a terrorist cell?!! I read that the script was hilarious, and all the producers loved it but no one wanted to produce it for obvious reasons.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

You totally trump my crankiness about not having the most recent "Battlestar Galactica" episodes airing on my cable because I live in Canada. (I haven't seen episode 2.14 yet because it's not finished downloading.)

Even I've downloaded BSG 2x14 already :-)

Fred Savage's character is gay, but he's not out to his family. It's an okay show, and his character is portrayed alright (he's supposed to be the sanest one in the family, I believe).

Wow! So is he the lead character? Again I say, wow!

Good news - there's good portrayals on both shows!

Good to hear, as I've heard mixed things about both shows.

I'm VERY excited that Jon Stewart is hosting!

It's like some kind of Oscar Day miracle! I can't wait :-)

I read that the script was hilarious, and all the producers loved it but no one wanted to produce it for obvious reasons.

Wow, there's high concept and then there's high concept! Jeez, who thought up that idea. Bizarre.

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

Even I've downloaded BSG 2x14 already :-) It normally takes till Sunday night for there to be enough sources to download it on Limewire. Where do you download from?

It's like some kind of Oscar Day miracle! I can't wait :-) I know!! I'm already inviting friends over to watch it!

Wow, there's high concept and then there's high concept! Jeez, who thought up that idea. Bizarre. I know! I would love to read it.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

It normally takes till Sunday night for there to be enough sources to download it on Limewire. Where do you download from?

I use bit torrent and this week I practically started downloading as soon as I found the torrent on mininova - about four hours after it finished airing in the U.S. (West Coast)

I think it took about 6 hours to download after that. I think that's a record.

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm going to try bit torrent!